Boks: Schalk could play No 8

2010-08-09 11:01

Comment: Rob Houwing, Sport24 chief writer

Cape Town – Who takes the fall if veteran flank Juan Smith returns to the Springbok starting line-up in the Vodacom Tri-Nations match against the All Blacks at Soccer City?

That is one of the more intriguing issues after the Cheetahs’ captain was named among a 29-strong training squad ahead of the match on August 21.

The elongated list of names left many critics largely none the wiser as to Bok intentions for the home leg of the Tri-Nations after the traumatic overseas part, although it did seem to indicate a desire not to hit panic buttons to any great extent yet and mostly put faith in incumbent troops after a welcome break.

But the deserved recall of 29-year-old Smith, after he missed the away assignments primarily on personal grounds, presents a conundrum as to the composition of the Bok loose trio in Soweto.

And it might even mean that Schalk Burger revisits the No 8 jersey for the first time at international level since he featured there against the United States at the 2007 World Cup, when South Africa thrashed the United States 64-15 in their last group match at Montpellier.

It is hard to see Ryan Kankowski being retained as the blindside flank, where he operated with some spirit and energy against the Wallabies but is clearly a fish out of water, as his strengths lie for more as a tearaway from the back of the scrum.

Indeed, smart money suggests the Bok loose trio against New Zealand is likeliest to come from a quartet of Burger, Smith, Francois Louw and Pierre Spies.

The Springboks certainly need to urgently restore an individual who plays to the ball, to lessen Burger’s load in that department, and that should mean his Stormers team-mate Louw re-enters the starting picture – no other designated “fetcher” has been named in the squad.

It is imperative that the Boks, over the next few weeks, provide effective counter-measures to the success on the deck of New Zealand captain Richie McCaw and the Aussie burrower David Pocock.

With Smith correctly tipped to return to blindside flank, where he is one of the most honest and yeoman workers you could wish for – not to mention a big lineout factor -- fitting in Louw at No 6 obviously endangers Burger’s spot.

Or does it? The loose forward under the most searching scrutiny is probably Spies who, for all his wonderful gifts in the offensive power and athleticism departments, has been rather exposed for defensive commitment and technique over the past few weeks on the slower, heavier Antipodean pitches.

That said, the Highveld is very much an environment where players like the Bulls No 8 tend to come more strongly into their own, so that only adds to the quandary for the brains trust.

But Burger, a key senior figure in the Bok mix, is arguably well less deserving of the chop than Spies – he was one of few visiting players to show the necessary “ticker” and stamina right up to the closing stages of at least two of the three defeats in Australasia.

In the Super 14 this year, too, his alliance with Louw in the turnovers area had a major impact in the Stormers’ advance to a maiden final appearance: there both operated as flanks with Duane Vermeulen (perhaps unlucky not to get a Bok squad call-up on Sunday) at No 8.

Burger at the back of the scrum might be one way to solve the Bok dilemma. He has never been afraid of the challenge, and at one stage in pre-season the Stormers skipper was being touted to operate there on a full-time basis.

He played in that jersey at school and again at Stellenbosch University, and confidently expressed the view, ahead of the World Cup appearance at No 8 against the US Eagles, that “I don’t think No 8 will change my style of play”.

With combating the wily, presently rampant McCaw a vital aspect if the Boks are to earn a pride-restoring victory in Soweto, a loose trio comprising Louw, Smith and Burger (at No 8) starts to make a bit of sense.

Doesn’t it?


  • Slider - 2010-08-09 11:13

    Just put Juan at No.8, he has played there more often than Schalk, and (slightly) more recently.

  • SupportertoEnd - 2010-08-09 11:20

    Drop Spies...don't know when last he made a contribution?? No. 8 is the position where you have the most freedom on the pitch. Nothing seen on attack or defence in this comp yet!!

  • better times - 2010-08-09 11:28

    a loose trio of juan,louw,schalk at 8 is not a bad prefer vermeulen at 8 and rest schalk and spies.spies has fallen away badly with his test form.we need a loose trio who love donkey work and kankowski is a super sub like skinstad.we all know bekker will replace matfield,but bakkies successor is yet to be one is stepping up ahead of the rest.bismaark and brussouw are huge players and will be welcomed back when fit,the public need to realize that missing bismaark,brussouw,bakkies,juan,fdp are huge blows.imagine nz without mccaw,carter,thorn....yes pdv is making cardinal errors,however,there is light at the end of the tunnel.these players missing are huge losses..just there names returning to training is encouraging.

  • Robert - 2010-08-09 11:35

    It is true that Burger, Louw and Vermeulen are a good loose trio - but you forget that they were outplayed when it counted by the Bulls trio of Stegmann, Potgieter and Spies in the S14 final, especially when it came to turnover ball. I don't agree that Spies has had a bad tour - the team selections and tactics are the problem. If you play Spies and Burger, you can't ave Kankowski/Smith as your other flank. You need a fetcher. Dripping your No. 8 is not going to solve the problem.

  • George - 2010-08-09 11:40

    Good heavens. We are becoming desperate. Lambie with one game at flyhalf against a weak side? There is no doubt he has talent but so has Pienaar..... where is he now? How we want to cheapen the bok jersey. I'm surprised no one suggested Earl Rose!!!!!

  • Andrew - 2010-08-09 11:41

    Please not again another player out of place for convenience????

  • Grant - 2010-08-09 11:43

    Why?Why?Why? Why does this clown keep playing players out of position, players play in positions for their clubs and provinces and are selected for that performance. Why when they reach national level, they are played out of their positions to their detriment and the detriment of the team. Point in question Pienaar, Smit, Steyn and now Burger. Div, pick and play players at their strengths. The cracks and pressures of coach are really showing now, these are last gasp attemps to reserect something (by luck), SA rugby players are good it's the leadership that is left wanting.

  • edwin - 2010-08-09 11:45

    I think Habana is past his sell by date. I think Mvovo of the Sharks is stronger on his legs. I also watched Baismarck on Saturday. He is not yet ready for a test match. He must still play a few more games in the Currie Cup.

  • Willow - 2010-08-09 11:48

    What about Brussouw, also been invited to join the squad, there is your fetcher!

  • stormloop - 2010-08-09 11:56

    burger is too clumsy to be an effective nr.8. duane vermeulen would be perfect becuase of his combative style. he is of the old-school nr.8's and in a team carrying so many pasengers you need a grafter. spies is hopeless and kanko also dissapears when the going gets tough. flouw needs to step up big time. im afraid that juan smith only offers great defence . juan is a good player but at times also very one dimensional.

  • Time to vote - 2010-08-09 12:00

    Can one of the writers pls add a supplement whereby all the super14 teams are on display and the public can choose a SA team.So this can change according to injuries,suspensions etc.There is no way pdv is smarter than millions of rugby supporters,and it will show for once and for all who we believe who should be chosen each week.This will not be like fantasy teams,more like our input to pdv as he certainly needs it.Its one thing choosing quality players,its another thing choosing 15 players that compliment each other in test rugby!I

  • Emile - 2010-08-09 12:02

    PDV is totally clueless. Burger could not keep up with the pace in any of the games. He is slower than our props. Louw was just as pathetic. Maybe PDV is loosing it totally. Never seen such a totally confused coach in my life. Maybe someone should tell him what the word "Fetcher" means. Springbok Rugby is a circus and PDV is the main clown. I have no interest in watching Bok Rugby any further. One day, when PDV has finally departed, I just might try and support again. Sorry guys, but I had enough. WTF is January still doing there??????? The drop in performance of ALL the players can only be contributed to poor coaching. 8 weeks ago we all thought this was the best group of players ever and most of them did perform like super stars. It took PDV and his 2 idiot assistants less then 4 weeks to change the players into dumb, irritated, clueless, mindless, unprofessional players - all in poor form. Why must we accept this?

  • Telg - 2010-08-09 12:07

    Louw + Burger combination were outplayed in both Kiwi matches. Louw disappeared in both tests. Smith do not answer the McCaw/Pocock conundrum. Pocock husseld Burger. Spies is ‘flat’. The Vermeulen clang wants to replace current with same. No purpose. Boks need a Brussow type. Whoever plays in loose trio will do fine BECAUSE THAT IS NOT THE PROBLEM - Boks have NOTHING in backline. Analyse: 15 - wicketkeeper at best; 14 - doesn't exist; 12 - this isn't S14; 13 – no prima donnas, we need DeJong; 11 - What went wrong!!!; 10 - mediocre without Fourie DuPreez; 9 - Boks always had a good scrumhalf, we still have, only not selected. We can win the looseforward fight - to do what with the ball? Bulls game plan will not work, Stormers game plan cannot work - what about a Bok game plan. The Chinees has a saying 'fish smells from its head and not the tail!'

  • Daan - 2010-08-09 12:12

    At last!!!!!!! Someone writes something intelligent about Pierre Spies's attributes (or rather the lack thereof!) He is NOT a defender - the man is simply not made for a defensive game - On statistics ( it is clearly shown that he is the #1 tacke misser in the 3 nations. To top that, Spies is also the #1 ball looser in the 3-nations - a title he held in the 2009 S14 as well. Lots of BBull supporters (I am one as well) will now cry foul - check the stats guys, check the stats - they do not lie. The man is out of his leage - he is a wing - not a loose forward.

  • robbs - 2010-08-09 12:17

    Lambie is a great player for now?But their is no way he would cope with the pressure of an international game?His rugby carrer will end as soon as it started!Where is de waal or Pienaar?

  • juan @ 8 - 2010-08-09 12:26

    juan has better handling at the back of the scrum....juan,schalk,dewalt....a loose trio is a combination...a ball carrier,a fetcher and a wrecking ball like schalk...look at nz and aus.....there is no lightweight kankows in their team...when we all fit...beast,bismaark,jannie,bakkies,bekker,brussouw,schalk,vermeulen..fdp,msteyn,aplon,dejong,fourie,mvovu,fsteyn bench:lambie,hougaard,juansmith,matfield,cj,tliebenberg,potgieter/louw

  • Bok Stock - 2010-08-09 12:38

    Schalk should not even be a Bok. He is a dumb and dirty thug. Drop him once and for all. As for PdV chopping and changing and fielding players out of position yet again... his selections look like he sounds at a media conference. All over the place and clueless. And laughable.

  • Tjoppie - 2010-08-09 12:46

    Pierre Spies gets a good ball now and again and scores a "wing" try. Otherwise he does nothing. No 8 is NOT in his blood.

  • Orca - 2010-08-09 12:51

    You guys really make me laugh. A mere few months ago, Pierre Spies was so good, the Pretoria media referred to him in Afrikaans as "pure bull". Now suddenly he is absolute crap. Last year Schalk Burger was the most devastating flanker in the world according to you guys. Now he is "slower than props" (a worse insult one could barely contemplate). A year ago Piet Snorre could do no wrong. Now he is a clown and you want him fired at the earliest opportunity. Maybe less brandy and coke and more sober sense is required. You lot haven't changed since the Anglo-Boer war - always fighting amongst yourselves and about as cohesive as a "ouma" rusk in a cup of hot tea.

  • BC - 2010-08-09 13:01

    Spies was a non contributor in NZ and Aus. When playing the btough teams a No 8 needs to be seen on defence and Spies just does not cut it.He's a glamour boy player. Burger is far better option with Smith and hopefully Brussouw or Louw. Lambie is a great potential but needs a bit more experience in Currie Cup against the tougher teams there before he gets thrown in to a Bok side. Putting him in now could destroy the guy, especially if he has to play outside January.

  • keith blond - 2010-08-09 13:06

    Why dont they put Spies back on the wing, he is tall, strong and quick. Would nullify any thought on kicking onto that side of the field.

  • Sharkie :-) - 2010-08-09 13:19

    Die ou dr0l kan nie eens `n bal raak vang nie..... wat nog te se van `n bal agter die skrum optel en beheer. Die Bokke is besig om `n bespotting van hulself te maak. Kyk net na die span keuses... dit spreek boekdele!

  • groenbok - 2010-08-09 13:23

    Drop Spies, he looks like He man and performs like SHE man... Truly Spies is only effective when they play lessor teams with smaller opponents whom fears his size. His defence is poor and his ball skills limited. It helps nothing in a rugby game to have a guy that looks like a body builder and acts like a ballerina. He(Spies) does nothing but dance around before the cameras while flexing his biceps. Wake up Coach and smell the deep heat. We need guys like Burger, Smith and Brussow..... and add Bismarck to the rest, you will have a fearless pack that will hunt the opposition down, tackle the shit out of them, handle the ball like backs and turn everything over for a fit Fourie and a Steyn to do what they please.

  • Sharky - 2010-08-09 13:32

    Spies will excel again in SA, everyone in NZL and AUZ was bad, not just Spies. But Schalk at 8? Are they crazy? Another player out of position and he SUCKED when he played there before. Schalk doesnt even deserve to be in the Bok squad at the moment.

  • JW - 2010-08-09 13:52

    Brussouw is the best fetcher in the world! How could the writer not even mention his name in this article? He is miles ahead of Louw

  • Andy - 2010-08-09 14:03

    We are finally waking up, there was one player who turned the boks fortunes around and that was Heindrich brussouw, he is the best fetcher we have in SA and he exposed Schalk badly. Schalk should only play 8th man for when Pierre Spies is off form. We desparately also miss Fourie du Preez as we do not have any other playmaker in the back line. Habanna is off form and should be rested. They must bring JP pieterse back in that side. the trinations is lost, so use this as a chance to bllod young talent like de Jongh.

  • Dries - 2010-08-09 14:06

    Play Burger at centre or wing, same logic applied as when Blobbie was still around. I cannot get the mentality of the SA selectors, has been the same for years, so cannot blame coach or current selectors. Play the best player in his position, remember when Danie Gerber was played at Wing. Come on guys get real are you telling me we have to pick players based on who they are or who they know, not on their merits.

  • Apie - 2010-08-09 14:28

    a pity we live in the past - we need to look for for speed new technique to counter the opponents. Please use speed stamina and willingness in your selection for the loose forwards and break away from the old typical decisions - forget about the signed contracts and select the best - what about Spies Keegan Daniels and Dewald Potgieter?

  • Mark - 2010-08-09 14:52

    You need DIE HARD loose forwards like Stegmann and Brussouw. They are both injured and we all know that somehow Steggies will never be chosen by these clowns. Play Potgieter, Burger and Vermeulen with Smith and Spies on the bench...But with John Smit, Chilliboy and January in the team we all know that it is just a formality for the All Blacks to win. Just wonder how far they will win...Matfield must be made Captain now and all the hasbeens chased away

  • Nico - 2010-08-09 15:07

    To all the smart bulls fans and genuis sharks fans...F. Louw was best flank in super 14. Kiwi's were smart enough to look at video's of super 14 and used their brains to counter our best players.(it also helps if we pick players out of position) Go and look at video of first 2 games. Louw was played off the ball and taken out of lose scrums every single time by Nr, 6 or 8 of NZ (not once penelized!!!) NZ coach used his brians and got gameplan in place. Same as guy makes runs...look at video clips and you work out gameplan to get the guy out...We SA rugby are not thinking. We want to stick to old plan that worked in the past...but then we had wings that put presure on them and we had scrumhalf that can kick the ball and give his flyhalf quick ball and under no presure. We must just admit we are outsmarted and outplayed.

  • norman - 2010-08-09 16:13

    This coach is a complete moron.Even i know that you can not play test rugby with players out of position.We are going to get the biggest hiding ever at Soccer City.Maybe we can put a turbo in Victor and John's asses so perhaps the could get to the breakdowns before halftime.

  • gfm - 2010-08-09 16:22

    Hoo Boy!! Jislaaik ma julle meisies kan darem huil ne!!! Julle speel KAK rugby, a goeie speler sal altyd goed speel al is die Coach ook wie!!! Brussowuw sal nie onder die nuwe reels effektief wees nie. Coach kies nie die squad nie, dies doe selectors, reg? Waarom wil julle no he die lesers/ publiek moet a span kies ons betaal dan ou Snorre en sy mates MILJOENE vir wat om kak aan te vang, so ook die spelers, hulle is "gespoil" en weet nie meer wat dit is om a Bok trui aan-te-trek nie, dis alles oor geld en kontrakte!!!! Daar le die probleem

  • STORMER - 2010-08-09 16:26

    DUANE VERMEULEN IS THE ONLY NAME THAT SHOULD BE MENTIONED WHEN TALKING "BOK NO 8". For the love of sanity, which selector should I target in my campaign to get Duane selected? Spies is poor - end of. Schalk will be ok at 8, but IMHO, Juan Smith might not quite be ready for test rugby yet......

  • Yadayadaya !! - 2010-08-09 17:22

    How about putting Rolling Ricky back at nr 9 ?? His sterling efforts at slowing down the game for the 'Boks will nullify any and all efforts by the loose trio (whomever the Great Snor wants them to be). Barney can go back to following the rest of the pack at a trot. Face it gents, it doesn't really matter who gets picked -- if you cannot stay with the pace, you've lost

  • J>A>N - 2010-08-09 17:54

    In my own humble personal opinion the problem does not lie with selections, but a team giving 110% in a game plan THEY believe will win them the game. But with a outdated game plan used since 2005, world rugby constantly evolving and changing with IRB rule changes, I can't see SA Rugby going forward to defend our title. Shouldn't Div be concentrating his efforts in coming up with a new and improved game plan than rather just shuffling players and coming up with conspiracy theories?

  • JOHN - 2010-08-09 18:29

    Schalk is a good club player only!! Spies should do javelin only! Pick players in their positions and the ones on form...... Dewald Potgieter,Dwayne Vermeulen,Francois Louw..simple... K I S S

  • ben - 2010-08-09 18:33

    Brussouw at No.8 no second thoughts. Since we have already lost the Tri Nations why not leave the veterans on the bench and play the new talent. Why not we have nothing to lose and it will give new talent international exposure.

  • Cornelius Geldenhuys - 2010-08-09 19:04

    i am sad 2 say - spies made NO impact in any test he played in last year and a half - the odd brilliant contribution in Super rugby, but that is not good enough - Habana is out of position all the time trying to intercept - the All B's & the Wallabies targeted that channel with Frans Steyn not there. Maybe Spies & Habana must stop making adds and focus on rugga! JW - Brussouw is still injured, but must be able to return for the end-of-year tour! Schalk was the only SA forward so far who played brilliantly. please people - i am a shark - but don't make Lambie a Bok yet. I am so glad to see Frans Steyn back! YEAH!!! no offence but i still can not believe poor ruan Pienaar was asked to kick at post - he is just not a specialist. Emile - January (like Naas Botha has said again recently) has never played a bad test for SA! look at rugby stats - he is one of the best and he is a factor. His passing is great! (By the way, Morne Steyn must also please just get out of his slumber - so far nothing brilliant came from him). In the 3nations the only back that made me sit up and get excited was Jaque Fourie, and before that when the same couch everybody is writing off TRASHED the 6nation champs France! Why have we become so arrogent to expect to win in New Zealand against the self-proclaiming best cheats in the game? Let them peak the year b4 the RWC! the Auzzies are under-rated and much better than we think. I am a Bakkies fan but we lost this 3nations the minute (early minutes of the series) when he head-butted the AB's 9 in front of the whole world! I am almost 100% sure he was not coached to do this?! We only got 6 penalties in that game - and our discipline the last 2 years has been awesome except for one or two events. Thank you so much Peter d V for standing up against SANZAR and these biast ref's! And please SARU - start sighting other countries players like we always get sighted!

  • R H - 2010-08-09 19:11

    Put JUAN at no 6 were he has played a lot,Schalk not a no8,gives us two halves two players,Francois Louw was not great drop him,keep Spies and Ryan Kankowski,add two dimentions too for each half!!Play both as well,hit them hard,play tuff pick n drive rugby then use Aplon and our fast back line when we it strike range,do not kick the ball too them,let Stein kick the far range kicks,penalties get us into their half,turn them around all the time,no kicking up and rubbish up and unders to them,power play!Bulls rugby,hard!

  • Jakes - 2010-08-09 19:34

    We need a Fetcher!!!!!!!!!!!! According to me, the only two in the group are Brussow and Potgieter. Juan for line-outs, and Spies at 8. Burger can come on as impact player. Louw did nothing against the ABs as fetcher, zero. Get our scrum on the front foot, pick a hooker (Liebenberg/Gary Botha) that are also an additional looseforward (not the Michelin man, too slow) Drop Habana, get the centre combination right and pick Hougaard on scrumhalf. Then, the defense needs serious overhauling. Viola, see how they win.

  • Fanatic - 2010-08-09 19:38

    As a big Bulls fan, I not sure that Spies is the answer at nr8, and I do concur that Schalla might be the answer there...however what I struggle to understand is why Deon Stegmann has not been pulled into the squad. In the Boks' successful campaign last year, apart from FdP, the biggest contributor was probably Brussouw. He however, prior to getting injured struggled to get to grip with the daylight rule, and was completely outplayed by Stegmann, not only in the S14 clash against the Bulls, but also in last year's CC-final. Stegmann went on to become the unsung hero in the Bull's successful S14 campaign, being the only player to get the better of McCaw this year...and he did it twice in three weeks. Although FLouw had an excellent season, he definitely was (imho) not the most effective forward in the country, and it showed against the AB's and Aus. In Brussouw's absence, Steggies could just have been the answer!!

  • franci - 2010-08-09 20:08

    With regret I read this. Do you get paid to do something so stupid? No wonder the All Blacks are revelling in our demise...

  • Obvious - 2010-08-09 20:23

    If Kanko had the same time to settle in that Spies enjoyed, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

  • Louis - 2010-08-09 20:59

    Problem in this year tri nations, was that in the warmup games were too many players out of positions, flankers that tried to shine, thus not scrumming to support the tight 5 , resulting in scrums under pressure and individual players been taken out by superior All black and Australia teams. Leave Spies , Schalk and any other fit flanker. Get the pack to do the basics right and the results will be good for the Boks, but for pete sake, choose players in their positions. Bring stability back, and leave the Butch's / Jean's to play abroad. Have out Captain fitness checked, he looks overweight, with absolute no impact and looking at the players dissipline, he is lacking leadership. He cannot even find his locks at lineout times. A very poor show, but what to you get for picking players out of position and out of form players

  • mike - 2010-08-09 21:02

    Schalk at 8, last time he played there he was completly useless. He doesn't have the skills or experience to handle the back of the scrum. Can we please play a good hard number 7 i.e. Juan, with a strong running 8th man i.e. Spies and then find an openside flanker that plays to the ball.. and no Schalk and Louw don't fit the bill. We need a brussouw like player, someone like Stegman or Botes. We where at our best when we stuck to this simple tactic. Of course now theres no fetcher even in the squad so who knows what Div plans to do.

  • Etienne - 2010-08-09 21:28

    Important notice first is that I am a BULLS supporter, but I do put the country and performance first when I pick this team. 15. F STEYN 14. APLON 13. DE JONGH 12. DE VILLIERS 11. JP PETERSON 10. JAMES 9. HOUGAARD 8. SPIES 7. SMITH 6. BURGER 5. MATFIELD 4.FLIP VD MERWE 3. BJ 2. SMIT 1. BEAST

  • WHAT?!?! - 2010-08-09 21:34

    Deon Stegmann and Heinrich Brussow are the best fetchers in South Africa, better than Louw and better at it then Burger. Yes both are injured but they should be there when recovered which will be soon. Leave Spies where he is and get Smith to his post along with a brilliant fetching flank. Just like they play at the Cheetahs. This is nonsense!!

  • Albert - 2010-08-09 22:36

    @Emile "Burger could not keep up with the pace in any of the games" dude did you actually watch any of the games? Look at the first 2 min of the last game and count the tackles he made. Yes he made more than 5 tackles in the fists 2 min and more than 40 the game. Who else in world rugby is that potent on defence? Wake up man!

  • Pieter - 2010-08-09 22:48

    Spankeuse; 15-Frans Steyn 14-Francois Hougaard13-Jaque Fourie12-Wynand Olivier11-Gerhard van den Heever10-Morne Steyn9-Ruan Pienaar8-Schalk Burger7-Juan Smith6-Heinrich Brussow5-Bakkies Botha4-Victor Matfield(Kapt)3-BJ Botha2-Bismarck du Plessis1-CJ VD Linde Reserwes:Jannie du Plessis, Gary Botha, Danie Rossouw,Duane Vermeulen,Jano Vermaak,Jean de Villiers,Juan de Jongh,Afrigter:Frans Ludeke en assitent Rassie Erasmus.Skeidsregter Jonathan Kaplan. Indien Fourie Du Preez beskikbaar was sou Ruan Pienaar reserwe wees in Jano vermaak se plek.

  • @ Nico - 2010-08-10 01:28

    Whatever Nico. And you are an authority on what? Most of the rugby-viewing public are incapable of deciding a players' value. But we have seen the Super 14 firsthand and have the sufficient knowlegde, thankyou very much. Deon Stegmann is a much better suited option in the current Springbok setup.