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Sport24 chief writer Rob Houwing’s 20-minute Q & A with John Kirwan, the All Blacks great visiting South Africa as a New Zealand 2011 Government Ambassador for the next World Cup.
World Cups in your home country in 2011 and then Japan, who you presently coach, in 2019 … that’s got to be a dream scenario for you?
For me 2011 is a really important moment for our country, and probably the last one we have unless we share it down the line. World Cups in various sports just get bigger and bigger in scale, of course, and we’re not a large (nation). So 2011 is an opportunity to create a legacy – four million people hosting a world event. Rugby is really a religion for us. We want to have people come to New Zealand and stay … and when we say stay we mean invest, buy property, look at businesses and truly use it as our period in the sun. From a rugby point of view I’m coaching Japan and in the same pool as New Zealand! This will be the fifth World Cup I’ve been lucky enough to either coach or play in. As for Japan 2019, that’s a bit of a political thing for me, as I still believe the game is too narrow. I know the (South) Africans are a bit upset they didn’t get either of 2015 (to be hosted by England) or 2019. I would have favoured 2015 Japan, 2019 Africa and 2023 Italy, myself. At the end of the day we have to open this game up to the rest of Europe and also Asia.
I guess you’ll get some stick at the 2011 event about a certain NZ 145 Japan 17 result at a previous tournament on our soil …
Yeah, although I believe in a future through (exposure to) competition. I’m not a particular fan of Super 15, but that’s another matter. But since that day in 1995, Japan has built a very good competition. You’ve got Africans playing in it, Gregan and Larkham, some All Blacks. We’re also playing in the Pacific Nations Cup – playing Tonga, Samoa and Fiji, NZ ‘A’ and Aussie ‘A’. We lost to New Zealand ‘A’ two years ago by 10 points and they had Victor Vito in the team plus Ma’a Nonu was out there. With a future through competition you’ll see 140-nils stop happening. If they do still occur, the IRB isn’t doing its job properly. Look at soccer worldwide: the quality is huge now. You had France, for instance, going home after the group stage of the latest World Cup, while an African team like Ghana really should have gone into the (semis). That’s got to be good. Argentina coming into the Tri-Nations is a good stepping stone for rugby.
What are you hoping to take home from this short trip, in terms of South Africa’s soccer World Cup legacy?
What you have achieved with this World Cup was to get the world to completely change its vision of you. Before, people were talking about Africans not integrating, about it being a violent place. Now people are saying “wait a minute, I want to go there, what a fantastic country”. Really mature, really coping. That legacy you cannot put a price on! My hotel in Cape Town, right now, today, is full of Italians. They don’t travel anywhere if they don’t believe it’s safe. New Zealand needs to say: you come to the rugby World Cup and have a great party, and you won’t be ripped off. Visitors then become our ‘travel agents’ for the next few years …
I was at cricket’s World Cup in 1999 and it went ‘dead’ atmospherically when hosts England exited early. Is rugby fervour guaranteed throughout your 2011 event?
Our maturity will be shown if we were to get knocked out early. All New Zealanders are fervently hoping it won’t happen, but I still think it would be a great tournament. I also feel strongly the All Blacks can go all the way; they’re way on target to win it. I think we will have an extra feather in our cap by playing at home: there’s more pressure on you but it is more positive pressure. Little thinks like being closer to your stress releases … Richie McCaw can go gliding on his day off, which he loves to do. I think it’s an extra edge for us. By the time we get to play your guys in the semis, they will have been away from home habitat for five weeks.
What about the old “peaking too early” charge? Are the All Blacks playing such good rugby right now that the only way is down, come the World Cup?
It’s a fair argument, of course. People ask me how you win World Cups. You win them by handling episodes. There will be episodes in the World Cup you need to deal with. The reason England won in 2003 was they came down to New Zealand in 2002 and beat us with 13 men on the field. And remember how Sir Clive (Woodward) brought on Mike Catt when Jonny (Wilkinson) wasn’t playing well against Wales and that game turned on its head. He settled down Jonny, kicked into the corner … that was an episode. Our episodes in the last few World Cups we haven’t dealt with very well. We need to get to the event, ideally as the best team, and then handle the episodes during the games. You know, we don’t actually ‘peak’ between World Cups. We aim to be No 1 in the world every year. That’s always been important to us.
Has the extent of the Springboks’ tumble in recent weeks surprised you?
The new rules have had a lot bigger impact than people thought. They’ve let us take risks a bit more and get away with it! But I think it’s been really positive for the game and I just don’t feel South Africa has adjusted as well as New Zealand. But they’ve had a few weeks to think about it and regroup and ought to be fine on Saturday. I think we’ll see a real Test match. It’s a bit like what happened last year: you cleaned us 3-0 and we went away and thought about it, adapted to the new rules and hit back strongly. This game changes quickly and you need to stay abreast of that. As a New Zealander my money’s on the All Blacks for Soweto, but what I’m hoping is that we edge out a tricky one. Winning on the Highveld, clinching the Tri-Nations … that’s a big psychological gain ahead of a World Cup. You’ve got some injuries, new combinations, so it’s important we try to keep a (grip) over you at this stage.
Sport24 chief writer Rob Houwing’s 20-minute Q & A with John Kirwan, the All Blacks great visiting South Africa as a New Zealand 2011 Government Ambassador for the next World Cup.
World Cups in your home country in 2011 and then Japan, who you presently coach, in 2019 … that’s got to be a dream scenario for you?
For me 2011 is a really important moment for our country, and probably the last one we have unless we share it down the line. World Cups in various sports just get bigger and bigger in scale, of course, and we’re not a large (nation). So 2011 is an opportunity to create a legacy – four million people hosting a world event. Rugby is really a religion for us. We want to have people come to New Zealand and stay … and when we say stay we mean invest, buy property, look at businesses and truly use it as our period in the sun. From a rugby point of view I’m coaching Japan and in the same pool as New Zealand! This will be the fifth World Cup I’ve been lucky enough to either coach or play in. As for Japan 2019, that’s a bit of a political thing for me, as I still believe the game is too narrow. I know the (South) Africans are a bit upset they didn’t get either of 2015 (to be hosted by England) or 2019. I would have favoured 2015 Japan, 2019 Africa and 2023 Italy, myself. At the end of the day we have to open this game up to the rest of Europe and also Asia.
I guess you’ll get some stick at the 2011 event about a certain NZ 145 Japan 17 result at a previous tournament on our soil …
Yeah, although I believe in a future through (exposure to) competition. I’m not a particular fan of Super 15, but that’s another matter. But since that day in 1995, Japan has built a very good competition. You’ve got Africans playing in it, Gregan and Larkham, some All Blacks. We’re also playing in the Pacific Nations Cup – playing Tonga, Samoa and Fiji, NZ ‘A’ and Aussie ‘A’. We lost to New Zealand ‘A’ two years ago by 10 points and they had Victor Vito in the team plus Ma’a Nonu was out there. With a future through competition you’ll see 140-nils stop happening. If they do still occur, the IRB isn’t doing its job properly. Look at soccer worldwide: the quality is huge now. You had France, for instance, going home after the group stage of the latest World Cup, while an African team like Ghana really should have gone into the (semis). That’s got to be good. Argentina coming into the Tri-Nations is a good stepping stone for rugby.
What are you hoping to take home from this short trip, in terms of South Africa’s soccer World Cup legacy?
What you have achieved with this World Cup was to get the world to completely change its vision of you. Before, people were talking about Africans not integrating, about it being a violent place. Now people are saying “wait a minute, I want to go there, what a fantastic country”. Really mature, really coping. That legacy you cannot put a price on! My hotel in Cape Town, right now, today, is full of Italians. They don’t travel anywhere if they don’t believe it’s safe. New Zealand needs to say: you come to the rugby World Cup and have a great party, and you won’t be ripped off. Visitors then become our ‘travel agents’ for the next few years …
I was at cricket’s World Cup in 1999 and it went ‘dead’ atmospherically when hosts England exited early. Is rugby fervour guaranteed throughout your 2011 event?
Our maturity will be shown if we were to get knocked out early. All New Zealanders are fervently hoping it won’t happen, but I still think it would be a great tournament. I also feel strongly the All Blacks can go all the way; they’re way on target to win it. I think we will have an extra feather in our cap by playing at home: there’s more pressure on you but it is more positive pressure. Little thinks like being closer to your stress releases … Richie McCaw can go gliding on his day off, which he loves to do. I think it’s an extra edge for us. By the time we get to play your guys in the semis, they will have been away from home habitat for five weeks.
What about the old “peaking too early” charge? Are the All Blacks playing such good rugby right now that the only way is down, come the World Cup?
It’s a fair argument, of course. People ask me how you win World Cups. You win them by handling episodes. There will be episodes in the World Cup you need to deal with. The reason England won in 2003 was they came down to New Zealand in 2002 and beat us with 13 men on the field. And remember how Sir Clive (Woodward) brought on Mike Catt when Jonny (Wilkinson) wasn’t playing well against Wales and that game turned on its head. He settled down Jonny, kicked into the corner … that was an episode. Our episodes in the last few World Cups we haven’t dealt with very well. We need to get to the event, ideally as the best team, and then handle the episodes during the games. You know, we don’t actually ‘peak’ between World Cups. We aim to be No 1 in the world every year. That’s always been important to us.
Has the extent of the Springboks’ tumble in recent weeks surprised you?
The new rules have had a lot bigger impact than people thought. They’ve let us take risks a bit more and get away with it! But I think it’s been really positive for the game and I just don’t feel South Africa has adjusted as well as New Zealand. But they’ve had a few weeks to think about it and regroup and ought to be fine on Saturday. I think we’ll see a real Test match. It’s a bit like what happened last year: you cleaned us 3-0 and we went away and thought about it, adapted to the new rules and hit back strongly. This game changes quickly and you need to stay abreast of that. As a New Zealander my money’s on the All Blacks for Soweto, but what I’m hoping is that we edge out a tricky one. Winning on the Highveld, clinching the Tri-Nations … that’s a big psychological gain ahead of a World Cup. You’ve got some injuries, new combinations, so it’s important we try to keep a (grip) over you at this stage.
