News24

TV ref rights could expand

2012-03-05 22:33

Cape Town - South African referees boss André Watson says the rights of the Television Match Official (TMO) could expand after the Bulls were awarded an illegitimate try in their clash against the Cheetahs over the weekend.

Watson says a rigid protocol helped the Bulls score an illegitimate try in their clash at the Free State Stadium.

Bulls prop Dean Greyling was awarded with the try in the 10th minute of the game, which the Bulls went on to win 51-19.

The referee, Craig Joubert, referred the call to the TMO Johann Meuwesen. Meuwesen awarded the try because he was only allowed to make a call on what the referee had asked him.

Greyling illegally performed a double movement before placing the ball over the goal-line but Joubert didn't spot the double movement. He saw the placement, and asked Meuwesen: "Is there any reason not to award the try?"

Meuwesen wanted to lure Joubert into an alternative question (try or no try?) so he could realise it wasn't supposed to be a try. However, according to the International Rugby Board's protocol for referees the TMO is only allowed to respond to the referee's original question. This rule prohibited Meuwesen, who knew it wasn't a legal try, from instructing Joubert to award the Cheetahs a penalty.

Watson told Die Burger it was an unfortunate incident where the protocol prevented the right call to be made.

"According to protocol from the IRB a referee is not allowed to respond to any additional information from the TMO which doesn't relate to his original question. Johann wanted to give Craig extra information, because it clearly wasn't a try. But both of them would have ended up in hot water.

"The problem started with Craig not spotting Greyling's transgression. In this case the protocol led to the wrong decision being made and Craig has taken full responsibility," said Watson.

However, luckily the IRB is planning to test the protocol where the TMO's rights are expanded.

"It will allow the TMO to point out foul play and to give additional information to prevent a situation like what happened at the weekend. If there is, for example, a forward pass which leads to a try 30 meters on, he'll be able to point it out.

"I really hope the Currie Cup is one of the competitions in which the protocol will be tested. A decision will be made next month," said Watson.

Sport24

Comments
  • Bulldozer - 2012-03-05 22:46

    That illegitimate try, made up for Bjorn Basson's legitimate try that wasn't allowed a couple of minutes earlier.

      Boer - 2012-03-06 02:02

      Yip, ek het dit oor en oor gekyk. Daar was geen bewyse dat Basson se voete die grond geraak het anderkant die lyn voordat hy die bal gedruk het nie. The player was in touch. Which player and what portion of the ball carrier please?

      Boer - 2012-03-06 02:05

      Dieselfde geld vir die Sharks se drie. Duidlike voorentoe aangee maar die ou met die bril sien niks. Terwyl ons dan nou mooi wil kyk, gaan kyk na die WP se lynstaan. die stutte/ondersteuners stuit die springer af voordat daar kontak gemaak word maar daar word nie daarvoor gekyk nie. Almal het nou net oe vir die afbreekpunt.

      Jenny - 2012-03-06 08:52

      Rubbish, Bjorn Bassons try wasnt legit.

      Nick - 2012-03-06 09:12

      hahahah the one both feet were in touch sit nader aan die tv boetie

      S - 2012-03-06 09:14

      At least three of the Bulls' tries came from forward passes, but the ref allowed it. Not that it would have made any difference, they were playing against the Blind School.

      Robsschele - 2012-03-06 10:53

      Question: Is there any reason why I cannot award the try? Answer: Yes. Double movement. What is wrong with that answer. It covers the question. The answer could also be. Yes. He played the ball on the ground. First he try to pass the ball back, then he moves the ball forward again.

  • Freddie Francois Strydom - 2012-03-05 22:51

    I'm sorry but this is absolute bull dust!sorry wrong is wrong and that could have changed the game! But ja let's cheat instead of getting into a little hot water! Sorry but are we now becoming cheaters to satisfy the irb! Rugby should not be played ike that!! Just my opinion!!!

      Freddie Francois Strydom - 2012-03-05 23:14

      Seeing we getting personal ere, do you stand behind meisiekind with a name like bulldozer??? But on a serious note, if that is how you bulls wanna win then ja! Nothing more to say!

      Freddie Francois Strydom - 2012-03-05 23:31

      Its funny how NORMAL south africans can comment on sport sites without getting personal, and yet you bunch up there can't! Prob is the thin air! So ill excuse you!!! Shame!

      Bulldozer - 2012-03-05 23:33

      Ok Frikkie.

      joe.figueira - 2012-03-06 08:26

      Wake up boet the bulls didn't win by one point, anyway the other teams are too K%K to talk about and their supporters are yellow. Start criticizing your own teams. I have seen worse tackles (Hougaard) made by other teams and they don't even get a yellow card, but it's the bulls.

  • Staal - 2012-03-05 22:55

    Hmm... expanding the TMOs rights a little bit is fine, for example a transgression right there within a few meters, even 22 meters. Not so sure about this 30 meter idea. For one it will take longer and second you will only be catching the ones where the eventual try scoring action was unclear. So it really just makes one team lucky that a forward pass was caught at the right time. It really doesn't strengthen the justice aspect. Forget distance - and use time as your marker. Video replays should be for that last x secs. The TMO can check anything in that time frame but nothing before.

      Alex - 2012-03-05 23:16

      You have a valid point. I believe that when they talk of 30m out, it will be for forward passes and a try run straight in. That would be less than 4 seconds, less time than Greyling lay there before placing the ball.. The TMO is watching everything, so he will not go back more than 5 seconds unless there was something questionable that he saw as it happened? Or that is how I'd expect it to be done. I think this change would be for the better.

      Alex - 2012-03-05 23:49

      Not bored enough to copy someone else's profile! LAME!

      Chumscrubber1 - 2012-03-06 06:21

      You Bulls and Stormers fans are the most boring okes on the planet. Never discuss the articles, just niggle each other all the time. Hardly ever an opinion on the article.

      Neil - 2012-03-06 06:51

      I disagree with limiting the TMO. We should give him as much power as possible. We have the technology for the whole world to see the indiscretions happening in real time, the only person who can do anything about it is the one we aren't allowed to inform? Why can't the TMO buzz the ref at ANYTIME in the game an let him know there's an indiscretion? Referring would be a lot more fair an unbiased and a lot easier to hold up to scrutiny. Hold those refs accountable. Empower the TMO don't limit him! Even the playing field. Keep the spectators happy. We can all see what's happening, why can't we tell the ref so he can apply the law?

      Nick - 2012-03-06 09:14

      same with the bulls a lot of dodgy decisions helped them vs sharks and a shocker making headlines all over from bryce joubert

      S - 2012-03-06 09:21

      @Fake Saffa: Instead of making baseless accusations, could you please enlighten us with your superior rugby knowledge as to what exactly did the Stormers get away with? While you are at it, please inform us which of the penalties against the Sharks were not deserved, and why? I have yet to see you make one single informed rugby comment, all we get are insults and childish rants. Rather go maim some more patients, you despicable slab of misery.

      Robsschele - 2012-03-06 11:02

      He should also be able to make a decision about a white card. When the play is stopped after a foul and when the number of the player commiting the foul is unknown, he should do a quick review and advice the ref of what he can see.

  • joe.okros - 2012-03-06 02:22

    About time, plenty of all Black tries come from forward passes and illegal play at rucks.

      Eric Schollar - 2012-03-06 06:23

      Whine, whinge, moan, grumble, complain - it must be a japie!

      S - 2012-03-06 11:25

      Condoning forward passes and illegal play at rucks - it must be a Kiwi!

  • Theuns Botha - 2012-03-06 04:30

    'is there any reason not to award the try?' ............. well YES! the double movement!!!!

      Chumscrubber1 - 2012-03-06 06:24

      This is exactly what I thought. Is it really that complicated? I can't understand how the question is blamed for this mistake, its just as clear as "try or no try". Quite pathetic really.

      ina.weilbach - 2012-03-06 11:29

      Presies Theuns. Watson-hulle is pateties en dink die publiek kan mislei word met tegniese woordjies. Joubert en die TV enetjie het fouteer en hulle kan dit nou maar erken! Johann

  • brionyl.french - 2012-03-06 05:16

    Yeah not sure either, Would you be saying that Saffa if the try could have saved the precious pink team from a loss? Of course you would. So shut your stupid mouth. I think anything that makes the game more fair and helps the game do it!!! In the End it makes no difference who is the better team, its who plays the game by the rules and still wins thats the winner... So Saffa yoru little comments are pathetic and immature!!

      jordaanjean - 2012-03-06 08:12

      What pink team .. have you seen them play in pink ? if you have you need to get your eyes checked. They have a blue KIT. It will be classic to see them in their pink AWAY kit and then still win the game !! PS.. I do agree however that SAFFA is kinda missing the point.

  • Chumscrubber1 - 2012-03-06 06:17

    "Is there any reason I cannot award the try"? Is that a complicated question? No ref, you can't award the try as there were two movements! It really was not that complicated. Come on, the question was not the problem, the answer was. This excuse makes no sense to me.

  • Eric Schollar - 2012-03-06 06:19

    Good thing this wasn't an international with the decisiom going against a SA team. The refs life would be in danger!

  • darkangelBDF - 2012-03-06 06:27

    Oh, okay. Let's expand his role when he's deciding on illegitimate tries but what about those that should be awarded and aren't? Like the one from Bjorn Basson not too long before Greyling's? Just asking...

  • Hans - 2012-03-06 06:34

    All fine but would it realy made a difference, come on guys! don't think so

  • Marius Lacante - 2012-03-06 06:35

    What about the try before that which was not awarded ?? That was a try ??? Awarding the second try was only justice Andre !! Your TMO refs should open their eyes !!

  • Bullion - 2012-03-06 06:36

    Hierdie tipe foute het al hoeveel keer gebeur. Wereld bekers is al gewen en verloor a.g.v iets wat n ref nie gesien het nie. Net interresant dat dit nou na gaan gekyk word na die BULLE n fout drie gekry het. Lyk my die BULLE gaan tot die ref boeke herskryf. Hoogste takke kry maar die meeste wind. Go BULLE speel net goeie rugby dan maak dit nie saak wat die refs of die ander spanne probeer doen om julle te stop nie. BULLE BO

      Robsschele - 2012-03-06 11:13

      Why they want to look at it now is to stop another team from getting a try in a similar way. We can argue stuff like this in a lot of ways. Let us just enjoy the rugby and stop insulting each other. All or most of us are looking at the game in a bias way. When I look at the game I see the Bulls always in front of the kicker. Why else can they be so quick on the catcher.

  • verweyc - 2012-03-06 06:45

    @ Saffa Maybe it is time that you look at all the stats, talking about last on the log, well that is where your beloved bulls have been for 3 times already, and the stormers have never been there. So the bulls maybe the best over the last 5 or 6 years, and there is no doubt about it, but as good as they are, they were just as bad in the past. Maybe you are not old enough to know these things, so go play with your little dinkie toys on the highway if you do not have any positive rugby contribution to do. This article has nothing todo with the stormers, neither does it even mention the stormers. keep to the point

      Boer - 2012-03-06 07:05

      As jy nie die kompetisie wen nie maak dit nie saakwaar jy eindig nie. Tweede loser of 14de loser.

      Merven - 2012-03-06 07:58

      @verweyc,to end at the bottom a two or three times don't make you a bad team, never reaching the top do.

  • Zion - 2012-03-06 07:30

    The cry went out a long time ago to expand the TMO's powers on the field. It is really a ridiculous situation when it is obvious and known that a team has not scored but the benefit of the doubt allows the try to be awarded. There is an almost moronic element in the present laws of the game. There are many nother aspects of the game which will be streamlined by the assistance of the TMO like in the line-outs and the old foe: Forward passes.

  • Fred - 2012-03-06 07:32

    So sloooow! It takes these Ego's so long to make a simple decision to improve officiating, that many fans have long left the game.

  • Henk - 2012-03-06 07:52

    the question was: any reason why i cannot award the try? the common answer is yes, double movement panelty against the bulls. now they want to claim that he only had to answer the question. what a bloody joke!

  • Weyers - 2012-03-06 07:55

    Andre, thanks for finally realising what everyone knows namely 1. The questions the ref ask the TMO is totally ridicilous is most instances and 2. The refs are not up to standard to call forward passes and double movements themselves.

      DuToitCoetzee - 2012-03-06 08:28

      That is where the problem is. He, me, you know this problem exist for many seasons, but Watson always says what please people. The fact remains. They could have fixed it long ago, but no the" Lordship", as member of the "godly group" called refs, will say what you want to hear, but before implementing it the "kingdom" must 1st see what negativity that in-hold for them and not how it can help rugby. When seeing that they are not the "god" on the field anymore, they can lose status and even jobs. Do you ever wonder why a linesman, specially when a know ref, do not want to be seen of helping too much, but will assist on a mute(for us) communication system? It has to do with "I don't hurt your immage and next time you don't hurt mine. The unwritten and unspoken law of refs. Coming to the tmo the same apply and by asking him, the tmo must be able to say what he saw, irrelevant of the question. Those rules is all to do with having control by a group of people above, running the players's and public's game in a way to ensure their status and positions. Always take their word from their local "spin-doctor" with a pinch of salt.

  • Blaine Dillon - 2012-03-06 07:57

    The TMO could've said, yes there is a reason not to award the try, double movement.

      heinrich.beukes1 - 2012-03-06 08:41

      Yeah I agree with you, this is stupid. He would have responded to the question then!

  • jordaanjean - 2012-03-06 08:06

    That try was just karma kicking in for the try that Basson scored that was not awarded. So get over it. Even with that try not being awarded the bulls dominated the game.

  • Paul - 2012-03-06 08:15

    The 1 try would not have changed the game - we still would've won by far!!!!!!!!!!

      Valentino - 2012-03-06 10:29

      Its not a matter of winning, its just the right way of assesing a situation.

  • Christian J Denyschen - 2012-03-06 08:16

    i might be wrong but if i remember correctly the question wasn't can you give me a reason not 2 award a try, what he asked was the grounding of the ball and the second grounding was over the line, its just poor communication between the two refs.

  • Jason - 2012-03-06 08:20

    surely if the ref asks the question "is there any reason I can't award this try" the TMO can simply answer YES... and then explain. I would have thought his question is quite broad, allowing for the TMO to spot any indiscretions... all for giving the TMO more power

  • Marius Roodt - 2012-03-06 08:26

    Two sides of a coin. Yes, the TMO did fail to mention the doubble movement, but the ref was also very persistent in wanting to award the try. Making a mountain out of a mole hill. What we should be wary of, is ending up like the NFL, where its such a stop start affair. This could end up killing the naturall flow of the game, due to constant TMO intervention. Just my opinion.

  • Gareth - 2012-03-06 08:29

    @ bulldozer & saffa you are BOTH sick puppies. Honnestly, and should be baned from making comments on any sporting sites. you 2 have absolutely no idea how childish you are. You have the mentality of 2 year olds. Life probably dealt you a bad hand, and you got hit by the stupid branch on your way down. I feel for your wife and kids as you cannot teach them anything except how NOT to act. All our rugby teams are amazing and there is talent in every one of them including the Bulls. Moreover, every team has its uneducated idiot supporters. However the ratio of them under the Bulls supporters is much higher. No offence to those Bulls supporters that are normal people, but i know there are even some bulls supporters that think other bulls supporters are commen!! AND PLEASE NOTE!! I SAID ALL TEAMS HAVE COMMEN SUPPORTERS! the bulls just have more and thus are more noticable!

      Jacques - 2012-03-06 08:43

      I fully agree Gareth. The 2 of them remind me of a certain person that got expelled recently......... Go all the SA teams!!!! Make us proud!

      Bootman - 2012-03-06 09:37

      Could'nt have said it better myself Gareth. Those two are a disgrace to us normal rugby fans. They should be banned from the forum forever. Let's start a poll to see who wants Bulldozer and Fake Saffa banned from Sport24. If you want them banned then "like" my comment. I'll go first.

  • Kirstein - 2012-03-06 08:37

    Ek kry die idee dat julle baie dinge hopeloos kompliseer en te tegnies raak! TMO kon mos dan bloot gesê het 'no try' - op grond van die inligting tot sy beskikking op daardie punt. En aan diegene wat so afdwaal van die punt - al die spanne word oor presies dieselfde kam some onregmatig bevoordeel of benadeel. Lekker dag en geniet julle rugby.

  • Romano - 2012-03-06 08:43

    : "Is there any reason not to award the try?" Meuwesen should have said yes there was a double movement. and the try would not have been awarded! refs are dumb. if you ask them Do you want coffee? or Coffee yes or no? is it not the same question?

  • Romano - 2012-03-06 08:49

    "Is there any reason not to award the try?" Meuwesen: Should have said YES there is a reason not to award the try! If you ask them Coffee or no coffe? or do you want coffee? wonder what the answer would be to those questions?

      Robsschele - 2012-03-06 11:20

      If you ask him coffee or tea, he will probably say yes.

  • Bigrp - 2012-03-06 08:51

    I read all the comments here, and can't understand how this can become a slinging match between supporters of different teams? The fact of the matter is, the TMO can only rule on what happens INSIDE the ingoal area, please read question 5 for the full protocol http://www.sareferees.co.za/news/ref_news/2851804.htm

  • Valentino - 2012-03-06 10:27

    Andre Our so called TV refs are blind idiots that probably read the screen like braille. They have made so many mistakes even though they have modern technology. Please replace them and I'm even prepared to do that simple job.

  • Tim - 2012-03-06 12:09

    Could have said yes as there was a double movement prior to the try. What should the standard question be in instances where the TMO gets areferral from the ref?

  • Ridwaan - 2012-03-06 12:22

    Time for South africans to start Rugby League profesionally here.... Less of this IRB influenced stupid rules where the ref is the decider. its ridiculous ! 13 Man free flowing rugby please ... Does anyone know why Rugby League hasnt taken off in SA, as it has in Aus, NZ, Egland etc ?

  • Naas - 2012-03-06 12:51

    What nonsense. The referee asked "is there a reason not to award the try"? A very simple answer "yes there is a very good reason he did not score legally" The referees make a mockery of it

  • Spy - 2012-03-06 15:21

    People need to start thinking outside of the box, for crying out loud... Question was: "Is there any reason not to award the try?" Answer should have been: "Yes and the reason is, he illegally performed a double movement before placing the ball over the goal-line." As easy as that....

  • Schalk - 2012-03-06 22:51

    Ja Bulldozer, once again your mouth switches on before your brain can react - siestog man!

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