Wales won't appeal penalty

2011-09-11 15:56

Brenden Nel - SuperSport

Wellington - Wales will not look to Rugby World Cup officials to take action against the touch judges for not awarding a penalty that looked to have been over.

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Welsh fullback James Hook kicked a solid penalty in the 14th minute of their 17-16 loss to the Springboks which looked as if it may have curled back into the crossbar, but at a fair height above the uprights. But the penalty wasn’t awarded by assistant referees George Clancy and Vinny Munro and Hook turned away shaking his head.

Asked afterwards why the television match official wasn’t used to confirm the penalty’s result, coach Warren Gatland steered clear of the potential minefield.

“I thought it was interesting when at halftime we went to the tunnel and were talking amongst the coaches. We thought it was over and Frans Steyn walked past us and said “yeah I thought it was over”.

“They have the technology but at the end of the day you can’t complain about it. It happens and you have to take the good with the bad. The penalty was potentially costly but we also missed a clear drop goal at posts and James (Hook) also missed a penalty shot at goal.

“That’s part of the game and we respect that.”

Wales will however be hoping the IRB look into the matter, which could have determined a different outcome to the Pool D match.


  • Frans Smith - 2011-09-11 16:08

    "We thought it was over and Frans Steyn walked past us and said “yeah I thought it was over”." Thinking it was over and KNOWING whether it was or not (like the two line judges) is two different things? What a waiste of time? The tv ref is their to use only IF the referee or touch judges are unsure.

      Henk - 2011-09-11 19:43

      If you look closely at the try from Whales, you will see that the pass was forward! Justice served!

      Gwendoline - 2011-09-11 20:59

      I just wonder what WE would've felt and said if the shoe was om the other foot?

      Anon - 2011-09-12 07:37

      Glad to see I'm not the only one that thought the pass was forward

      RandomDude - 2011-09-12 08:03 .. Have a look around 0:44 DEFINITELY forward.

      rockster666 - 2011-09-12 08:41

      I also saw the forward pass leading up to both the Boks tries. Wales hard done by.

      Gazza69 - 2011-09-12 09:14

      SA 17 Wales 16....check the record books, thats what it says! Nuff said.

  • bobbythebozo - 2011-09-11 16:27

    I to thought it was over but if it went past the posts at a height above the top of the post TV is a very difficult tool to use to make the call and the linesman is in a better spot than any of the camera positions currently used. Its to infrequent that an issue like this occurs to justify the use of specially positioned cameras that could be used to make the correct call. Easier to add another 10 yeards to the length of the posts I would guess. It definitely cant be said that it cost Wales the game. Score changes game dynamics.... Anytime Wales hit the front the Boks gameplan would have had to change. The only missed kicks that clearly cost games are those that happen in the very last minute or two...

  • BOFFINBOB_UNBANNED - 2011-09-11 16:48

    Thought it was over !!!!! It WAS over.

      V. Zela - 2011-09-11 16:54

      Two line judges didn't think so

      Dicey - 2011-09-11 17:01

      Guess what ... I checked the score sheet ... & it WASN'T over.

      chappy - 2011-09-11 18:06

      If both of the linesman standing at the base of the posts say it wasn't over, I'd love to know where you get the bollocks to call it over from the camera which filmed it at a nearly perpendicular right angle...

      Barry Edwards - 2011-09-11 19:13

      @Biffin...Yes over...over the uprights

      Ron - 2011-09-11 21:45

      CRAP look at it carefully if the posts were taller the ball would have hit the post LOOK MAN.

      Viv - 2011-09-12 07:58

      We can all kick and moan and nash our teeth but at the end of the day the ref and/or assistant ref's make the calls the rule the game. The score stands no matter how you all bitch and moan about it. The game is over. Boks need to pull finger and soon!

      rockster666 - 2011-09-12 08:47

      Yeah the two line judges rushing to the bank.

  • slg - 2011-09-11 16:56

    Rugby is the dumbest sport when it comes to officiating. It's so dumb. Week-in, week-out results are wrong. This is the IRB's responsibility. They are allowing the Ego's of officials to determine the system that keeps these officials in the lime-light, when they should hardly be mentioned at all. They should be in the background, officiating the game, producing reliable results. Again, American Football went through this more than a decade ago. They added two referees, allowed team appeals and used technology to the fullest. Results are now close to 100% reliable. In rugby it's about 60%. Dumb.

      RandomDude - 2011-09-11 17:28

      Agreed .. it's almost as if the rules of rugby changed to allow for forward passes . It's insane , at least 6 forward passes in the last game against NZ .. the pass that lead to the Welsh try was also forward . In tight games it comes down to who's the luckiest team .

      Mr D - 2011-09-11 17:28

      @ slg.... And the rugby game will last for 4 hrs with tv breaks inbetween whatever...kak idea anyway

      FranklySpeak - 2011-09-11 17:33

      Yes slg it is, just take the goal technology used by FIFA at last year's world cup, if it wasn't for that England might not have score a crucial goal..... ohhh wait.

      Ian - 2011-09-11 20:08

      American football!!! Are you serious, the next most stupid game after Aussie rules!

      croix - 2011-09-11 20:48

      @ Random - And the ref was RIGHT ON THE SPOT to see the forward pass ??

      slg - 2011-09-11 22:11

      It doesn't have to be 4 hrs. Just an extra 15 minutes will do the trick. A few replays here and there, based on four to six appeals per game. Plus three referees working together, some extra eyes. I used to be a strong rugby supporter. I hardly watch it anymore. I couldn't celebrate victories or truly think about losses because of the variation and errors of the officiating.

      Owentjie - 2011-09-12 02:49

      Sig, thats not always true bud, In football, a pass can be caught where a player dives and catches a awesome catch, the other team will contest it, then you see the slow mo, he does everything right but as he catches it, the ball touches the ground as he cradles it never losing control, but nonetheles, the ball touches the ground in the process of the catch. The call will then be over turned. Sometimes tese calls take up to 5 min to process. Imagine 3 of those in a rugby game. 15 min of waiting. What a waste

      slg - 2011-09-12 04:31

      Limits could be set. Speaking personally, I think 15 to 20 minutes extra per game would be well worth it. The amazing thing would be the change in results. We're living an artificial reality at the moment. Many games are seemingly won and lost when in fact a true result would be the opposite. It would be an eye opener. Can you imagine for example two appeals for Rickie McCaw's off-sides per game for not coming through the gate? Imagine what effect that would have on outcomes. Entire games would be changed. They would take a whole new direction from penalties being awarded that otherwise would not but should have been awarded.

      RandomDude - 2011-09-12 08:09

      @croix , yes he was .. .. have a look for yourself @ 0:44

  • Ernst - 2011-09-11 16:56

    Was the pass that led to the Welsh try not forward?

      Jackool - 2011-09-11 16:59

      I thought so too.

      standoff - 2011-09-11 17:10

      Just reinforces what sig is saying.

      mikegd - 2011-09-11 17:25

      Clearly the officials didn't think so

      Jackool - 2011-09-11 18:19

      @mikegd...clearly the officials didn't notice it.

      with respect - 2011-09-11 18:30

      yes - when the ref asked "is there any reason i can't award the try?", it was pretty poor of the tmo not to even look at the pass. bottom line is both sides get poor decisions thrown their way, and the final score is what counts.

      Tank24 - 2011-09-11 19:58

      Actually, after the last game in the tri nations between SA and NZ the ref asked the exact same question. The TMO then said it was grounded but would the ref like to know anything that transpired before that. The ref then said yes and the TMO said it was a forward pass. Paddy O Van winkle of the IRB then said that the TMO had no authority to give that information as it was not asked from him and in future he would make sure that the TMO did not mention things like that. So the ref would have to have specifically asked if it was a forward pass before the TMO could have told him that.

      Henk - 2011-09-11 20:22

      Still a forward pass!

      mikegd - 2011-09-12 20:00

      Yes. So were the passes that preceded the 2 SA tries

  • enlightened - 2011-09-11 17:09

    why do we South Africans always have to be so, I don't even know the word. The welsh are being cool about the whole the whole think making it clear they accept the referee's decision. The were asked to comment and they did in the most sportsmanly of ways. We are actually the ones scratching and biting every time something does not suit us.

      Bob - 2011-09-12 08:03

      At last a fair comment, the word you are looking for is "unsporting", all I read pre-match was how the boks were going to murder the Welsh etc etc, the truth is the Welsh beat the boks in every single facet of the game except the most important one the final scoreline, you guys honestly think you can beat three strong teams in a row to lift the WC, I don't think so. Well done the Welsh and very sporting of them to not go on and on about the goal not given.

      chaka - 2011-09-12 08:23

      Actually, the bottome line is that we should not have won that game. The springboks played a disgustingly considering that they are meant to be world champions and on the day Wales definately played the harder game and I think they were unlucky. Don't get me wrong I am a true springbok supporter but SA needs to take the good with the bad and we don't like to loose and if we do we find excuses. Like Schalk said the attaced in the first five minutes and then they had to defend for the other 75 minutes. GO BOKKE!

      Jakalas - 2011-09-12 08:29

      Come on, guys! The Welsh are claiming to accept the decision, whilst making damn sure that they get maximum media exposure for their claimed loss. We all saw the kick from the kicker's perspective - not from the Assistant Referees'. I think the ball curled back after passing the posts - this would seem to confirm the officials' decision.

  • Eric - 2011-09-11 17:10

    I think the Welsh needed to lose like that. They are a melancholy bunch and the sad loss will fuel their singing. Expect some really mournful dirges to add colour to the World Cup.

      ŸÄ±Kleinboet - 2011-09-11 17:26

      Springbokke wil net aan almal van julle die volgende spelers voorstel: JdV: Die stadigste senter in weredlrugby (totaal overrated) JF: Swakste verdediger by die toernooi Habana: Die 2e stadigste speler in die wereld, ook met poefies in sy hande Schalk: Domste speler in die wereld (net Duane gee hom `n go) en hande oortrek met die poefies. Dankie Bulle, FdP na Hougie en 7 punte!! dat julle die game vir ons gered het

      POLLENYS - 2011-09-11 17:37

      @ ŸÄ±Kleinboet Ja, en gelukkig is Steroids Spies afgehaal nadat hy 60 minute lank niks gedoen het nie.

      Punter - 2011-09-11 19:27

      @Kleinboet Fdp was pateties en laat ek raai jy wil seker WO daar kry hahahahahahahahaha dan sal ons nooit gewen het nie kom ons bid JdV is OK of bye-bye WC2011

      Scaramouche - 2011-09-11 19:36

      Kleinboet, I think you were still trying to work out if that ball is over or not, as you have clearly not watched the game. Schalk was enourmous, massive (I am not a Stormers supporter), Hougie was brilliant and Bismark was outstanding. However, several players were absolutely poor and that includes a few Bulls and an ex-Bull. Spies must be regretting that he fell sick prior to the previous WC as he could have had a brilliant WC behind him by now. This time round he won't be remembered. FdP is a shadow of his former self en must drastically find form. Victor looked injured. Morne Steyn has looked as poor as did good against the ABs in PE. He can't tackled and can't play behind a losing pack. Habana is far from what he was in 2007. Offereing very littkle and was outshone by Hougaardt. JPP was looking like a lost shadow on the wing. Have to look for work JPP!! Brussouw was solid, but the Welsh was ready for him - they did their homework. JF was the only back the looked if he has some creativity and has heard of running lines. F Steyn - awesome, apart from once or twcie being out of position. However, his try showed what he has to offer in terms of power. Great hoof on him as well!! Danie Rossouw - what a versatile player! He slotted in and did what was expected. Steenkamp made a difference and was better than Beast. JdV - not on the field long enough, but took a few big hits from Jamie Roberts. Most others would have foulded.

      flat bier - 2011-09-11 20:53

      Fourie du Preez en Morne Steyn het ons amper die game gekos. Steyn se defence is swak en gaan teen somoa getoets word (as hy speel). Ek sal verseker Hougaard 'n go gee op 9. Loop k.k kleinboet, Schalk het vir Brussouw stil gespeel. Brussouw kon net een turnover bewerkstellig en dis dit...

  • Maha - 2011-09-11 17:26

    Classic game but too much penalties given away!!! Well done Bokke...

      Scaramouche - 2011-09-11 19:39

      True, but the Aussie vs Italy game was like a walking demonstration of the rule book!!

  • Jannie de Vos - 2011-09-11 17:29

    None so blind as those who simply refuse to see... Forget the score and arguments - if you still have it on your PVR you can check and see for yourselves. But my guess is that you have already done that... :-)

  • brinjal - 2011-09-11 17:31

    Boks better pull their fingers out or.......

      Point Blank - 2011-09-12 08:34

      or what? Man up, go tell them that to their faces, coward.

  • Phuza - 2011-09-11 17:33

    @Ya_Kleinboet: Weet nie watter game jy gekyk het nie maar FdP het self p$%^s in sy hande ghad! Tyd dat hy saam met die ander "ou hout: in die span aftree (en kommentators word)!

  • Oom Koos - 2011-09-11 17:54

    To Wales. Sorry, guys, you were robbed of a victory. You were the better team and did not deserve that decision. From South Africa

      Jackool - 2011-09-11 18:24

      Wag nou bietjie Oom. As hulle nie genoeg punte teen 'n power Suid Afrikaanse ouetehuis kon aanteken nie, verdien hulle ook nie om te wen nie.

      Scaramouche - 2011-09-11 19:41

      To Oom Koos, Welcome to International Rugby! Those who deserve to win don't always. Ask the Welsh teams of the last 15 years! From the Rugby Public

      Wormtongue - 2011-09-11 19:42

      Maori I like your new name better - at least it is more real.

  • mike.nkosi1 - 2011-09-11 17:54

    Yeah, I thought it was over, but was surprised when I saw the score line hadn't changed!

  • ChrisW - 2011-09-11 18:47

    The game is over read the score and weep Wales. I also thought it was over.

  • 722 - 2011-09-11 19:21

    The ref today was not sure of many things like the law that the tackeller must show daylight after a takel. this interpretation neerly cost SA the game today. I see it as justice for the blind eye of the ref especially at the tackel area.

      Scaramouche - 2011-09-11 19:43

      He had a good game, but the call you are referring to he had completely wrong!!

  • JohnPicarra - 2011-09-11 19:29

    I believe that God also speaks afrikaans... ( some english believe that God speaks english, so there you are...) And even portuguese! Remember when they scored a try against the all Blacks after the english couldn't? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

  • David - 2011-09-11 19:56

    i think missing a dropgoal 10 metres straight in front of the bok posts is worse than the penalty not being given as over!

  • Dale - 2011-09-11 20:02

    Looked over to me.. But hey as a South african I will thank lady luck and shut up :D

  • GP - 2011-09-11 20:08

    Great sportmanship shown by the Welsh. And in my oppinion, yes, it was over. Go Bokke

      Robert Hurn - 2011-09-11 20:39

      what about penalties and no penalties given against the Welsh. Side enteries and many other cases.

  • namibia24 - 2011-09-11 20:26

    The bloody ball curled in only after it went past the uprights!!! The dicision was correct!!! The Bokke did win and we take the win, but with a lot of apprehension for the rest of the tournament.

      gerrymander - 2011-09-12 00:22

      A frame by frame view of the ball passing the posts should determine this - If ball is obscuring the post its over if the post is obscuring the ball its not. I am a bokke but thought the ball was over and surprised it wasn't given. If players on the pitch also thought it was over it negates the comments that the viewer subjected to TV views is making an ill-formed opinion because of the oblique angle that the tv only allows - as someone on the forums suggested. And in my mind making a mistake about a penalty going over or not is in a different league of mistake to that of a forward pass. For one thing a team has already been penalised for an infringement but then to not be certain about the awarded penalty is being quite lame by the match officials.

  • Rob Jones - 2011-09-11 20:51

    Wales won this game the penalty should be over turned. Bok no plan b. Backs looked ordinary no impact players.Wales looked like a well coached team, and if this result affects their total chances I believe its grossly unfair that the Bok won. BRING ON SAMOA THEY WILL SMASH YOU!!

      Robert Hurn - 2011-09-11 21:15

      Blah blah to a man not knowing the game. So many un-penalised mistakes from the welsh team and blind sideline refs made it difficult for the Boks but you obviously don't know RUGBY because you from the northern hemisphere. Web Ellis picked up the ball from frustration. It shows.

  • Theo - 2011-09-11 21:40

    I also saw that pass that lead to the Welsh try as forward, and for that reason, we take the result as officiating by the ref. I'm a huge supporter that the TMO can stop the game at any time to show the refs at a mistake they might have got wrong or couldn't see. As it stands now, they can only interfere after being asked by the onfield ref and then only to decide it a try has been scored or not. But waht if a team scored a seemingly legit try, but they had a forward pass not picked up where the movement started, lost of times in their own half. So a try is awarded, but the infringement way down the field was not picked up. Also give captains the right to have 3 "referals per match, if they think the team had been outdone. Either use technology fully or leave it out.

  • Rob Jones - 2011-09-11 22:27

    Last two games the Boks have won they have only won by bad official decisions sooner or later the luck will run out. Hardly gives any Bok fans any confidence

      BokBru - 2011-09-12 07:37

      And how many games have we lost because of bad luck. Take the Wales try. Looked very forward from where I was sitting. Bad luck to the Boks right. We had a bad game and still won. That says a lot for the Boks.

  • Rob Jones - 2011-09-11 22:37

    Last two games the Boks have won they have only won by bad official decisions sooner or later the luck will run out. Hardly gives any Bok fans any confidence

  • David Van Huffel - 2011-09-11 23:22

    Don't blame the Ref blame the Assistant refs who both were wrong and indecently one of them was kiwi. As for the boks, they were OK, If that was Australia in the same position they would have lost. Beware the wounded bok.

      ŸÄ±Kleinboet - 2011-09-11 23:29

      It's an easy equation from here: Get rid of useless, totally overrated JdV, Jacque F, Banana, Schalk and Smit OR BYE BYE WC!!

  • Dazza - 2011-09-11 23:35

    South African's are widely excepted as the most arrogant, self-righteous people in the world. If this had happened with 1 second to go, South Africans would still be saying they would come back to win. Must be years of apartheid which has made them arrogant and respectful.

      BokBru - 2011-09-12 07:24

      You always wanted to get that off your chest right? Hope you feel much better now.

      RandomDude - 2011-09-12 09:18

      Yes that's called believing in yourself , which is maybe why we're one of the most successful teams with the best hit rate when it comes to the RWC ...o, and you're a bigot

  • NeillJohnStyles - 2011-09-12 00:12

    um. it only curved to the left after it had passed the post.No points for that. How about being awarded a try from a forward pass. At he end of the day, the Boks played terribly, they better pick their game up!!!

      BokBru - 2011-09-12 07:21

      I agree totally. We did play terribly but we still won. That says a lot about our team. Wales played out of their skins and lost. Hope for the Boks yet.

  • JDemons - 2011-09-12 01:50

    Seems to me a lot of Rugby fans are forgetting....Rugby imitates life. Life is a battle, there are rules and laws but not everyone abides by them, enforcers (Polie/Referees) of those laws don't always get it right, there are highs and lows, you can control some parts but not all, you need courage, discipline, trust, and you should expect that not all decisions will not go in your favour (even when you're right). I've heard the whole "money & sponsors" argument. Just like life, money can only help so much until 'it' becomes the problem. Technology will take analysis to a level so detailed that you might as well play "American Football" as the action will slow because of the decisions that need to be made, if this happens the 'Life' will be sucked out of Rugby and it will become just another sport!

  • Zion - 2011-09-12 05:55

    With Barnes and Clancy around anything could happen. From the TV point of view it was definitely over. and with all the bias to wards the other teams we can easily guess how the final will end.

  • Bashful1 - 2011-09-12 06:28

    I thought the pass that lead to their try was forward. Just saying.

      BokBru - 2011-09-12 07:18

      It was forward. Sometimes you get some and sometimes you don't. Give them the 3 and take away 7. haha

      mikegd - 2011-09-12 18:52

      The 2 SA tries resulted also from forward passes, or didn't anyone notice. Too busy pulling the Welsh apart.

  • steveroodt - 2011-09-12 07:59

    Forward pass shall we complain too. But we won and thats that

  • Roy - 2011-09-12 08:47

    FdP is flippen slow behind scum and ruck...takes forever..Hogi for no 9!!!!

  • wateva - 2011-09-12 08:54

    Wales played better rugby - they should have won!

      RandomDude - 2011-09-12 09:38

      nope .. the SBs deserved the win since they're the better team who held off Wales and "found a way to win". You don't get awarded any points for most possession or most time sent in the opposition's half .

      Oukoos - 2011-09-12 11:57

      Disagree. Part of the game is kicking. If they cannot convert penelties to points, they do not deserve to win

  • Hope-101 - 2011-09-12 09:40

    If it was over, they should get the points. They should have replayed it from all angles because it looked as if the ball actually curled back in only AFTER it went OVER the right hand post. I think it would have bounced off the post if it was not so high. Use the TMO's to make the right decisions and let the right team win the game without any dispute after the game. Sounds fair to me. If this was against the Springboks we would have complained.

  • King Solomon - 2011-09-12 10:37

    The touch judge was standing at the post and could see if the ball was inside or outside the upright. What is all the fuss about?

  • adam.leighton - 2011-09-12 14:17

    I think Frans Steyn just said that to rub salt in the wounds... LOL

  • Zion - 2011-09-12 15:07

    The system is designed to protect the referee. In this particular case the ref "thought" it was not over and thus did not deem it necessary to consult with the TMO. Using that excuse he can get away with murder. I am sure the crowd boo'd and not for nothing. Imagine if that attitude is applied throughout life. Sorry your Honour I tried to miss him but drove over him and thought I missed him. I forecast much chaos and unhappiness on this rugger world cup. and with Barnes and Clancy around even the winner.

  • Dragon - 2011-09-13 14:09

    Don't care what anyone says, records and all, We, that is Wales won the game. Talk about blind linesmen.

  • finejason - 2011-09-13 16:33

    This story is big here in the UK (obviously) and even in the NZ Herald. All the articles blame the ref and ask why he didn't refer to the TV official. All articles I've read fail to mention that there are 2 guys directly underneath the poles (George Clancy and Vinny Munro I guess) and they raise the flag if it's over. They have a much better view than any TV match official does.

  • finejason - 2011-09-13 16:34

    This story is big here in the UK (obviously) and even in the NZ Herald. All the articles blame the ref and ask why he didn't refer to the TV official. All articles I've read fail to mention that there are 2 guys directly underneath the poles (George Clancy and Vinny Munro I guess) and they raise the flag if it's over. They have a much better view than any TV match official does.

  • finejason - 2011-09-13 16:34

    This story is big here in the UK (obviously) and even in the NZ Herald. All the articles blame the ref and ask why he didn't refer to the TV official. All articles I've read fail to mention that there are 2 guys directly underneath the poles (George Clancy and Vinny Munro I guess) and they raise the flag if it's over. They have a much better view than any TV match official does.

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